Art ratings?

[leelastarsky]

A question - particularly for my fellow artists, but I'm interested to hear everybody's opinion.

The ratings that are gernerally ascribed to fanfiction - G through to NC17 - do you think the same standards should apply to art? Or should they be higher because it is a visual medium?

I ask because the picture in my icon - the full version of which you can see here - Passionate Ron/Hermione, was just labelled NC17 in a forum and, I'm sorry, but I would never have classed that pic NC17. Yes, it's suggestive, but that's it. There is no cock to be seen, no sexual act in progress, not even a breast.

Personally, I'd have rated it M (15+), just to be on the safe side. Am I too liberal? I mean, my kids have all seen this, and they range in age from 15 down to just-turned-9. They weren't horrified or traumatised by it. And, to counterpoint, none of them have seen the 'quickie' slash drawing I did for shocolate the other day, because I know that would squick them, and that one I do regard as NC17.

So what's the consensus? Would you rate this painting NC17?

And, out of interest, what would you rate this one while we're at it?

Comments

[seviet.livejournal.com]

Dude, the US ratings astound us here in Europe. We are way too liberal about nudity and whatnot.

I agree with you, though - even in US terms, I don't think that picture warrants a NC-17. I'd give it an R.

[leelastarsky.livejournal.com]

Really? An R? In Australia R is 18 and over.

What about the breastfeeding one? You can see far more breast in that one, and it does have sexual undertones, yet it is also a nice family pic. ;~)

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

I'd rate it as an R. I don't think that it's NC-17 at all ... and the pic of Lily breastfeeding I'd rate a PG13, maybe PG. I mean that is not a sexual picture at all ... she's breastfeeding her child and having a laugh with James. It's full of love and just all around adorable.

I might not be a good judge though -- I often think that we're too strict about presentations of sex and nudity here in the US and too lenient with violence when it comes to ratings.

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

BTW, in the US an R rating is 17 and up ... maybe that's too strict for the pic. (Though I tend to be a bit lenient with R ratings because to me they never meant anything. Technically you're not supposed to see an R rated film before you're 17 but when I was a kid it wasn't much of a big deal or a problem to do so anyway ...)

[hildigunnur.livejournal.com]

Sometimes this rating business makes me a bit tired. In all honesty, I wouldn't rate your Passionate Ron/Hermione picture higher than PG-13 because just flip open any women's magazine and see an advertisement which is just as racy. As for the breastfeeding pic. G. People who are offended by a woman breastfeeding, are people who are offended by nature. I assume they can't go out of the door because there are plants pollinating outside or something.

(And it goes without explaining that I'm a liberal European)

[leelastarsky.livejournal.com]

*hugs you* Thanks! :~)

[anjenue.livejournal.com]

I'd tend to rate the Ron/Hermione as a PG-13/R (done like that), because it's not really racy enough to deserve an R, so much, but it's always good to be safe. (I mean, you see stuff like that on the covers of romance novels all the time.) The breastfeeding one's G, I would think. MAYBE PG if you wanted to be extra-careful.

[myf.livejournal.com]

In terms of Australian ratings (which, hurrah, both of us understand) I'd rate the R/H pic M. I hate the kneejerk reaction that violence is fine but some sweet loving is wrongity wrong.

(The squicky Remus/Snape pic was a definite R, though).

[godrics-h.livejournal.com]

As another Aussie in on this, Id go with the M.
And for the U.S people or others who arent sure. Our rating system is thus
G-General
PG-Parental Guidance
M-Mature 15 years
MA- Must be 15 or over OR parental consent
R- Forget about it if you're under 18

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

*twtitch* NC-17? HAHAHAH
Umm no, I've seen just as much in an Z-men comic, seriosyly, I think it's PG-13, not even R.

They suggestion of a coming sexual act is there, but the picture does not depict it and Hermione is covered more than half the woman I see in comics.

*maybe* R because technically Hermione has no top on, but in the US, that implies no one under 17 can see that without a parent and I jsut don't feel it's that bad or that harmful in content and suggestion.

but ummm NC-17, nononono, that rating is reserved for exposed genitalia, not even jsut for exposed breasts. An exposed breast is just R.

As for the second picture . . . I'm extremely liberal here but PG.
Seriously, the breast is not used in a sexual manner in the picture so there is no reason to rate it as though it were this scary thing that your children can't know about.
But my mom is about to become (Hopefully) the vice president of Lamaz so I'm very very very liberal when it comes to breastfeeding babies ^^;;

It drives me niuts to see people try and rate breastfeeding pictures as though it were somethign dirty and sexual -_- Too many guys just can't see past boobs=sex IMHO.

[joannablack.livejournal.com]

I would agree with you not to rate that first one NC-17, that's just ridiculous. R I can see, but not NC-17. The second one I'd rate PG, it's not sexual at all.

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

Hell, I'd think they were over-reacting to call it an R (US ratings, but I'm only really aware of them as we put them on fic.) I think you just found an odd group there *shrug*

[leelastarsky.livejournal.com]

It was the Checkmated forums. :~P

[fools-trifle.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit uncertain on these ratings as we have nothing really like it here - I think the movie ratings (which are just cautionary, there is no actual restriction imposed) run from "All" over 7+ to 15+ and that's about it :/
I think your rating of M(15+) to be on the safe side is fine. I'd let my kids see it (14 and 10), and I don't think they'd be either horrified or traumatised by the quickie picture either, but they'd definitely be squicked so I wouldn't show them that. To compare: I showed them this drawing I did (and they just thought the squid was awesome), but not this one :)
I'd consider the breastfeeding picture G, but I know the view on breastfeeding varies a lot - in this country women do it publicly, though many don't blatantly display their breasts while doing it but rather just uncover one at a time to let the kid suckle ;)
I don't see why art should be rated higher than fic... maybe some do because it's so readily accessible to anyone - I mean, you don't have to spend time and effort reading it, the reading of a picture is almost instantaneous (at least a superficial reading of it).

[a-fallen-sister.livejournal.com]

That first one I would give a PG-13. Maybe an R (your equivalent of an M, I think), but it's definitely not NC-17. That said, I usually rate my own stuff higher than I think it should be just to try to keep the very easily offended from clicking the link. :oD

The breast-feeding one (I love that one so much - such a happy little family!) is 'G', IMO. I don't see anything wrong with letting children, even young ones, see a woman feeding her child, so yeah...G. That's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, though. Some of the same people who have no problem with nude images of women in fashion magazines, etc. complain bitterly if they see a woman discreetly breast-feeding in a public place. An example - a few years ago, in our local shopping mall, I overheard a group of young, professional-type women loudly and quite bitchily complaining about a woman, sitting on a bench outside the stores, who was breast-feeding her baby (very discreetly, at that - she had a cloth draped over the baby's head.) The Victoria's Secret shop had a large poster display in the window, showing one of their models modeling panties. She had no bra on and had her arms crossed and her hands covered the nipple area. These same women sauntered happily into Victoria's without a second glance at the mostly nude model touching herself. It would have been almost funny, except it wasn't. :o)

[pelirroja-ljc.livejournal.com]

Oh, as for the breast feeding one, I'd say PG or PG-13(only by USA standards because women don't bare their breasts on a public beach and are pretty discreet when breast feeding). There is nothing sexual/violent about that picture to warrent a higher rating.

It's nothing I'd have a problem with my 11-year-old son viewing(although it might be followed by a chorus of "EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! GROSS!")

The one that I think I might Rate NC-17 is the Arthur/Molly one you did awhile back on the different seasons of love.

[argyle-s.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty familiar with the US rating system. (I'm old enough to remember the griping that got the PG-13 rating introduced).

Both pics would pull a PG-13. The Ron/Hermione pic because it is so blatantly, frankly, (and wonderly) sexual in nature. The breast feeding picture because you're showing exposed breasts.

Ironically, there was a time when the Ron/Hermione picture would have pulled a PG while the breast feeding picture would have pulled an R, because Americans are damned uptight about allowing kids to see tits, even if they spent the first year of their life chewing on a pair, but hey, what do you expect from a group whose primary cultural identity is a direct decendant of a group of Extremist Calvanists.

The quickie, on the other hand, is NC-17 straight up. First, there's cock, which is an almost automatic R. Then there's the fact that someone is touching that cock, which bumps it right up to NC-17.

[celtae.livejournal.com]

The Ron/Hermione pic NC-17?? That's a bit much, IMO. I'd put it at an American PG-13, no higher, really. The breastfeeding pic is G, to me. What in the world to people think they're hung there for, anyway??? I don't go around with my boobs on display 24/7, but when I was nursing, if my baby was hungry, she got fed. Period. I wasn't about to slink away into a public bathroom and sit on a dirty toilet to feed her - I didn't eat MY meal in there, and I didn't expect her to, either. ;) She also didn't like to have her face covered, so yeah, once in a while, someone saw something. I'm sure they'll get over it. ;)

[austenrowling.livejournal.com]

I would rate the first on M, and the second one PG-13 (not sure what the equivalent is in fanfics)

*agah* Now Posted on the right entry

[pelirroja-ljc.livejournal.com]

I rate fics and pics all the time as a mod on a HP site (granted not R/H). I would only have given it an R rating.

Reasons why R:

1) Suggestive positions of Ron's hands especially the right one. In another 10 seconds we all know where it's going to land.

2) The intensely passionate emotional overtones of the piece.

Reasons why not NC-17:

1) No exposed genetalia

2) Ron's hand is aiming at Hermione's crotch but it isn't there yet.

3) It seems to be consentual, non kinky foreplay of two people who are of age. In other words, tab A has not yet found slot B!(But if Ron is worth his salt it will in about 15 minutes)


The pic you did awhile back of the seasons of love with Arthur and Molly I think (from memory) would barely cross the line between R and Nc-17.

[stiffyb.livejournal.com]

It's so riduclous how censored everything is, particularly here in the U.S. Art is not a medium that should be rated, and when that occurs, it limits severely the number of people who can see the piece, reducing interest (or even inspiration).
I think your painting was lovely, and sensual, but by no means overtly erotic and unsuitable for mature young adults. If you felt comfortable showing it to your children, then you shouldn't be expected to feel uncomfortable posting it in a forum for all to see.

[stiffyb.livejournal.com]

and by riduclous, I meant ridiculous.

[netbyrd.livejournal.com]

I am still at the point where I think art shouldn't be rated unless it's blatantly a picture of screwing/act of sex. We don't rate nudes at a museum, but as soon as this stuff goes onine it's like, "OMG... my 12 year old son saw a breast! He will obviously now rape 56456 people!"

I'm not a big fan of our rating system here anyhow. THings blow up, arms get severed off, people punch old ladies in the face-- but that's "cool" and funny. But don't let the kiddies see a boob or other genitalia. The world might end.
Also? Much love again for the breastfeeding picture. Way back when the boobie issue appeared for you, I printed that out and showed it to my la Leache league. They thought you captured it perfectly, especially the grabbing of the other nipple. Ouch.

[kizmet-42.livejournal.com]

The R/H pic, definitely an R, pushing the boundary of NC.

The nursing pic looks way too painful for me. When a child pulls off the breast because it's distracted hurts. But I'd probably give it a PG. Nothing my kids haven't seen.

[lissannej.livejournal.com]

I'd rate it M, too (and I must say I think that's my absolute favourite piece of yours!). As for the James and Lily one, I'd say PG-13.

[http://users.livejournal.com/__hibiscus/]

The Ron/Hermione one, I'd give that an R at most. While I can see why the forum would label it NC17, there aren't any exposed bits or anything explicit about it. It's a tastefully done sexual situation. :D Personally, I relate the NC17 rating to pr0n, extreme violence, and/or squick-worthy things.

I'd give the second one a PG13. The breasts aren't exposed in a sexual situation. Dude, it's breast-feeding. Totally natural.

[rainingtulips.livejournal.com]

I'd give this one no more than a PG-13 because, like you said, there are no exposed bits or sexual acts in progress. I'm torn about the breast feeding one, however. In my opinion it's completely natural and worthy of a G rating, but I might just give it a PG rating because some people might be squeamish about the amount of breast showing.

[shocolate.livejournal.com]

Yup, if I could draw, and was posting in the UK, I would call it a 15 - in the US there is no such thing, so it would have to be an R.

[owl]

I'd say a UK 15 for the R/Hr one, and a U (G) for the breastfeeding one, maybe a PG.

[m4g1c4lm3.livejournal.com]

i would rate the ron/hermione M like you said, or even pg-13, and the breastfeeding one, i would make that pg.

[this-is-kelly.livejournal.com]

the thing with the forums is that they have to be PG13 safe. So, even if you rate it 15+ that still means it needs to moved from the regular eye. R and NC17 fics cannot be directly linked except in the RS... thus causing the move of the artwork, b/c it *was* directly linked. I'd give it an R. With the breastfeeding picture, that isn't a sexual one in context. I breastfed my son and my friends who are mums mostly breastfed, but I still might give it a PG13 to be on the safe side, although it could probably be a PG. But the other picture is sexual. Yes, his hand is covering her breast, but his other hand is creeping down her skirt. I'd still give it an R - which makes the move okay since the forums are PG13 and below.

[leelastarsky.livejournal.com]

As I explained to texasmagic below, I was under the impression that stuff only qualified for the Bedchamber or Restricted section if it was NC17. I have read R-rated fics at CM that were not in the Bedchamber, so I'm sure you can understand how I could get that impression, yes?

I have no problems at all with CM ruling what can and can't be permitted and am not about to jump up and down crying 'injustice!' but some of the R-rated fic I've read there was way more explicit than my painting. Hence my wondering whether art might have a different rating system to fic at CM.